Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Paying homage vs ripping off another group's sound  (Read 2651 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline brandon

  • N Forum Veteran
  • Naturist Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2253
  • Country: us
  • Location: Texas
  • Gender: Male
  • Age: 29
  • Texas
  • Referrals: 4
Paying homage vs ripping off another group's sound
« on: August 18, 2009, 07:16:14 pm »
I'm a strong believer in "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

We're probably all familiar with the controversy over Coldplay's "Viva La Vida". Is it an original song or a ripoff of Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens), Joe Satriani or Creaky Boards? I really don't care. The other artists'/groups' songs are good, but Coldplay's song is the best.

Linkin Park's "Shadow of the Day" sure sounds a lot like U2's "With Or Without You" but that doesn't bother me. Music, and perhaps art in general, is almost never totally independent of the works that preceded it.

What songs by one group remind you of another group?
We have it in our power to begin the world over again.  -Thomas Paine

Stuart

  • Guest
Re: Paying homage vs ripping off another group's sound
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2009, 07:17:25 pm »
The opening to "Money For Nothing" by Dire Straits has always sounded like a rip off of "Jumpin Jack Flash" by the ROlling Stones to me, although no ever agrees when I say that :76

Nude_not_rude

  • Guest
Re: Paying homage vs ripping off another group's sound
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2009, 11:36:14 pm »
o.k. so Dream Theatre reminds me a lot of Spinal Tap...is it the same band??? lol

Offline TheSeane

  • N Forum Veteran
  • Shouting it out loud
  • *****
  • Posts: 839
  • Country: us
  • Location: Texas
  • Gender: Male
  • Age: 38
  • I'm not an ambi-turner.
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Paying homage vs ripping off another group's sound
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2009, 06:44:58 pm »
I think the problem I have with most modern music today is that a lot of the stuff on the radio right now are cover songs back from the 80s and 90s..... lame! 

Seems like our label signed artists are running out of creative ideas with good driving lines so every one is digging up the "oldie goldie" tunes and redoing them. 

Viva la independent artists!

Offline brandon

  • N Forum Veteran
  • Naturist Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2253
  • Country: us
  • Location: Texas
  • Gender: Male
  • Age: 29
  • Texas
  • Referrals: 4
Re: Paying homage vs ripping off another group's sound
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2009, 03:30:40 am »
I think the problem I have with most modern music today is that a lot of the stuff on the radio right now are cover songs back from the 80s and 90s..... lame! 
How is that a problem? Seether's version of 'Careless Whisper' is better than George Michael / Wham's original version, imo.

Quote
Seems like our label signed artists are running out of creative ideas with good driving lines so every one is digging up the "oldie goldie" tunes and redoing them. 
'Twas always thus. According to Wikipedia, the Kingsmen's 1963 hit, 'Louis, Louis' was a cover. (The song was written by Richard Berry in 1955.) Fats Domino's 1956 hit 'Blueberry Hill' was written in 1940 and performed by various artists including Glenn Miller in the 1940s. Sinead O'Connor's 1990 version of 'Nothing Compares to You' is much better than Prince's version from the 1980s. Even if a cover isn't better, it is often still interesting to hear a fresh take on a familiar song. I love both New Order's  original version of 'Blue Monday' and Orgy's edgier remake. I prefer the Cowboy Junkies' version of 'I'm so lonely I could cry' to Hank Williams' version.

BTW, you might find some elements of Bach in various popular songs written in the 20th and 21st centuries.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 03:33:36 am by brandon »
We have it in our power to begin the world over again.  -Thomas Paine

Offline TheSeane

  • N Forum Veteran
  • Shouting it out loud
  • *****
  • Posts: 839
  • Country: us
  • Location: Texas
  • Gender: Male
  • Age: 38
  • I'm not an ambi-turner.
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Paying homage vs ripping off another group's sound
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2009, 07:31:10 pm »
I think the problem I have with most modern music today is that a lot of the stuff on the radio right now are cover songs back from the 80s and 90s..... lame! 
How is that a problem? Seether's version of 'Careless Whisper' is better than George Michael / Wham's original version, imo.

Quote
Seems like our label signed artists are running out of creative ideas with good driving lines so every one is digging up the "oldie goldie" tunes and redoing them. 
'Twas always thus. According to Wikipedia, the Kingsmen's 1963 hit, 'Louis, Louis' was a cover. (The song was written by Richard Berry in 1955.) Fats Domino's 1956 hit 'Blueberry Hill' was written in 1940 and performed by various artists including Glenn Miller in the 1940s. Sinead O'Connor's 1990 version of 'Nothing Compares to You' is much better than Prince's version from the 1980s. Even if a cover isn't better, it is often still interesting to hear a fresh take on a familiar song. I love both New Order's  original version of 'Blue Monday' and Orgy's edgier remake. I prefer the Cowboy Junkies' version of 'I'm so lonely I could cry' to Hank Williams' version.

BTW, you might find some elements of Bach in various popular songs written in the 20th and 21st centuries.

Of course there are always exceptions.  And yes, most of the popular music is written in basic sonata form.  We have Bach to thank for the complex counterpoint developments in even the simplest pop songs.  With that in mind, it's really fun to analyze the subtle things in todays music that make it interesting.

Sorry if I kinda geeked out on music theory for a little while there :-)

Nude_not_rude

  • Guest
Re: Paying homage vs ripping off another group's sound
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2009, 04:50:39 am »
I think the problem I have with most modern music today is that a lot of the stuff on the radio right now are cover songs back from the 80s and 90s..... lame! 
How is that a problem? Seether's version of 'Careless Whisper' is better than George Michael / Wham's original version, imo.

Quote
Seems like our label signed artists are running out of creative ideas with good driving lines so every one is digging up the "oldie goldie" tunes and redoing them. 
'Twas always thus. According to Wikipedia, the Kingsmen's 1963 hit, 'Louis, Louis' was a cover. (The song was written by Richard Berry in 1955.) Fats Domino's 1956 hit 'Blueberry Hill' was written in 1940 and performed by various artists including Glenn Miller in the 1940s. Sinead O'Connor's 1990 version of 'Nothing Compares to You' is much better than Prince's version from the 1980s. Even if a cover isn't better, it is often still interesting to hear a fresh take on a familiar song. I love both New Order's  original version of 'Blue Monday' and Orgy's edgier remake. I prefer the Cowboy Junkies' version of 'I'm so lonely I could cry' to Hank Williams' version.

BTW, you might find some elements of Bach in various popular songs written in the 20th and 21st centuries.

Of course there are always exceptions.  And yes, most of the popular music is written in basic sonata form.  We have Bach to thank for the complex counterpoint developments in even the simplest pop songs.  With that in mind, it's really fun to analyze the subtle things in todays music that make it interesting.

Sorry if I kinda geeked out on music theory for a little while there :-)

No reason to be sorry at all. I appreciated the parallel, but i don't think even today's musicians would think themselves Bach-like in their writing, they just think it sounds cool....;)

Offline TheSeane

  • N Forum Veteran
  • Shouting it out loud
  • *****
  • Posts: 839
  • Country: us
  • Location: Texas
  • Gender: Male
  • Age: 38
  • I'm not an ambi-turner.
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Paying homage vs ripping off another group's sound
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2009, 06:24:31 pm »
I think the problem I have with most modern music today is that a lot of the stuff on the radio right now are cover songs back from the 80s and 90s..... lame! 
How is that a problem? Seether's version of 'Careless Whisper' is better than George Michael / Wham's original version, imo.

Quote
Seems like our label signed artists are running out of creative ideas with good driving lines so every one is digging up the "oldie goldie" tunes and redoing them. 
'Twas always thus. According to Wikipedia, the Kingsmen's 1963 hit, 'Louis, Louis' was a cover. (The song was written by Richard Berry in 1955.) Fats Domino's 1956 hit 'Blueberry Hill' was written in 1940 and performed by various artists including Glenn Miller in the 1940s. Sinead O'Connor's 1990 version of 'Nothing Compares to You' is much better than Prince's version from the 1980s. Even if a cover isn't better, it is often still interesting to hear a fresh take on a familiar song. I love both New Order's  original version of 'Blue Monday' and Orgy's edgier remake. I prefer the Cowboy Junkies' version of 'I'm so lonely I could cry' to Hank Williams' version.

BTW, you might find some elements of Bach in various popular songs written in the 20th and 21st centuries.

Of course there are always exceptions.  And yes, most of the popular music is written in basic sonata form.  We have Bach to thank for the complex counterpoint developments in even the simplest pop songs.  With that in mind, it's really fun to analyze the subtle things in todays music that make it interesting.

Sorry if I kinda geeked out on music theory for a little while there :-)

No reason to be sorry at all. I appreciated the parallel, but i don't think even today's musicians would think themselves Bach-like in their writing, they just think it sounds cool....;)

This is mostly true.  There are some true musicians out there who really know all the intricate little details behind making something sound interesting, but a lot of the music magic that we hear actually happens during preproduction in the studio with a damn good producer.  From my studio experience with other bands and independent musicians, there is a ton of work involved in reorganizing, rewriting, coming up with back up vocal lines, rewording some vocal lines that may sound weird when sung.... all this happens before a single track is officially laid down.  Then of course there are the ideas the come up while recording... and also the postproduction that happens during the mixing process.... And then you have the CD mastering process...  So yeah, it can get tough to figure out where the artists' music starts and where the producers ideas begin... but a lot of bands I know wouldn't have half as good as a sound without the help of their producers.  And of course there are ALWAYS the exceptions  :786   There are a ton of independents who really know what the hell they are doing in the studio and have no need for an extra set of ears to help their music along...... then again those artist are usually extremely seasoned musicians.

Again, sorry for the big long excerpt.  I've been doing studio guitar work and live performances for a loooong time now lol
« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 06:26:12 pm by TheSilentWithin »

Nude_not_rude

  • Guest
Re: Paying homage vs ripping off another group's sound
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2009, 01:27:33 am »
I think the problem I have with most modern music today is that a lot of the stuff on the radio right now are cover songs back from the 80s and 90s..... lame!  
How is that a problem? Seether's version of 'Careless Whisper' is better than George Michael / Wham's original version, imo.

Quote
Seems like our label signed artists are running out of creative ideas with good driving lines so every one is digging up the "oldie goldie" tunes and redoing them.  
'Twas always thus. According to Wikipedia, the Kingsmen's 1963 hit, 'Louis, Louis' was a cover. (The song was written by Richard Berry in 1955.) Fats Domino's 1956 hit 'Blueberry Hill' was written in 1940 and performed by various artists including Glenn Miller in the 1940s. Sinead O'Connor's 1990 version of 'Nothing Compares to You' is much better than Prince's version from the 1980s. Even if a cover isn't better, it is often still interesting to hear a fresh take on a familiar song. I love both New Order's  original version of 'Blue Monday' and Orgy's edgier remake. I prefer the Cowboy Junkies' version of 'I'm so lonely I could cry' to Hank Williams' version.

BTW, you might find some elements of Bach in various popular songs written in the 20th and 21st centuries.

Of course there are always exceptions.  And yes, most of the popular music is written in basic sonata form.  We have Bach to thank for the complex counterpoint developments in even the simplest pop songs.  With that in mind, it's really fun to analyze the subtle things in todays music that make it interesting.

Sorry if I kinda geeked out on music theory for a little while there :-)

No reason to be sorry at all. I appreciated the parallel, but i don't think even today's musicians would think themselves Bach-like in their writing, they just think it sounds cool....;)

This is mostly true.  There are some true musicians out there who really know all the intricate little details behind making something sound interesting, but a lot of the music magic that we hear actually happens during preproduction in the studio with a damn good producer.  From my studio experience with other bands and independent musicians, there is a ton of work involved in reorganizing, rewriting, coming up with back up vocal lines, rewording some vocal lines that may sound weird when sung.... all this happens before a single track is officially laid down.  Then of course there are the ideas the come up while recording... and also the postproduction that happens during the mixing process.... And then you have the CD mastering process...  So yeah, it can get tough to figure out where the artists' music starts and where the producers ideas begin... but a lot of bands I know wouldn't have half as good as a sound without the help of their producers.  And of course there are ALWAYS the exceptions  :786   There are a ton of independents who really know what the hell they are doing in the studio and have no need for an extra set of ears to help their music along...... then again those artist are usually extremely seasoned musicians.

Again, sorry for the big long excerpt.  I've been doing studio guitar work and live performances for a loooong time now lol

Again no need to apologise. I understand where you are coming from having been involved with the odd session myself. I was talking with a brilliant musician the other day who's friend is an accountant who over analyses everything. He asked the musician how many notes there were in the average song. The answer went something like "well there are really only 12 notes or tones in the western scale, known as an octave. This octave can be played higher and/ or lower on an instrument depending on it's range or the range of the vocalist...bla, bla, bla..." and the accountant did some sums in his head and confidently said "well if that's the case, we've certainly run out of notes by now. Every possible combination of notes has had to have been used, so there can't be any new, original songs any more." The musician then said, "but you aren't accounting for context, instrumentation, tempo, rhythm, harmonic changes under the melody, lyrics sung with those notes, what comes before and after..."

So yes it's true that everything we hear today has been done before in some way and therefore naturally some apparently identical melodies and sounds are going to inevitably appear, but it's all down to how it's used and how it makes us feel. Also if the parallels were intended or not makes a difference to how we perceive the merit of a song.

« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 01:32:53 am by Toddo »

Offline TheSeane

  • N Forum Veteran
  • Shouting it out loud
  • *****
  • Posts: 839
  • Country: us
  • Location: Texas
  • Gender: Male
  • Age: 38
  • I'm not an ambi-turner.
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Paying homage vs ripping off another group's sound
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2009, 02:02:38 am »
True true my friend!  A very good story by the way  :2345

Offline brandon

  • N Forum Veteran
  • Naturist Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2253
  • Country: us
  • Location: Texas
  • Gender: Male
  • Age: 29
  • Texas
  • Referrals: 4
Re: Paying homage vs ripping off another group's sound
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2009, 03:02:24 pm »
... BTW, you might find some elements of Bach in various popular songs written in the 20th and 21st centuries.

Of course there are always exceptions.  And yes, most of the popular music is written in basic sonata form.  We have Bach to thank for the complex counterpoint developments in even the simplest pop songs.  With that in mind, it's really fun to analyze the subtle things in todays music that make it interesting.

Sorry if I kinda geeked out on music theory for a little while there :-)

Since you are into music theory, you might find this NPR interview of interest which compares a theme from a Bach prelude to a composition by Arnold Schoenberg:

"A modern composition technique championed by 20th century composers may have been presaged two centuries earlier by Johann Sebastian Bach."
listen (3 minutes)

(The Bach piece doesn't really sound anything like the Schoenberg piece, but I think it's still an interesting discovery.)
« Last Edit: September 06, 2009, 03:07:51 pm by brandon »
We have it in our power to begin the world over again.  -Thomas Paine

Stuart

  • Guest
Re: Paying homage vs ripping off another group's sound
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2009, 03:16:32 pm »
Since you are into music theory, you might find this NPR interview of interest which compares a theme from a Bach prelude to a composition by Arnold Schoenberg:

"A modern composition technique championed by 20th century composers may have been presaged two centuries earlier by Johann Sebastian Bach."
listen (3 minutes)

(The Bach piece doesn't really sound anything like the Schoenberg piece, but I think it's still an interesting discovery.)


Pachelbel's Canon has had quite a few contemporary songs based around it. "We're not going to take it" by Twisted Sister and "Torn" by Natalie Imbruglia are two noteable songs that follow the same chords.

Offline brandon

  • N Forum Veteran
  • Naturist Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2253
  • Country: us
  • Location: Texas
  • Gender: Male
  • Age: 29
  • Texas
  • Referrals: 4
Re: Paying homage vs ripping off another group's sound
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2009, 03:42:42 pm »
The Procol Harum song "A Whiter Shade of Pale" (the most-played song in the history of the BBC and the most-played song in public places in the U.K., and also the subject of a major authorship lawsuit) has a very recognizable Bach sound to it:

Quote
A part of the melody is based on the Johann Sebastian Bach's Cantata 140, also known as "Sleepers Awake" [the original German title is Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme], which is Bach's transcription of the fourth movement of the Cantata of the same name. More so, however, the song is based on Bach's "Air for G String": if you hear that, you certainly recognise "A Whiter Shade of Pale", but it is different enough to say that Procol Harum's song is more than an adaptation of Bach's "Air for G String".
Jos van Geffen
 
« Last Edit: September 06, 2009, 03:45:19 pm by brandon »
We have it in our power to begin the world over again.  -Thomas Paine

Offline brandon

  • N Forum Veteran
  • Naturist Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2253
  • Country: us
  • Location: Texas
  • Gender: Male
  • Age: 29
  • Texas
  • Referrals: 4
Re: Paying homage vs ripping off another group's sound
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2009, 02:00:10 am »
I learned today that Sting's song "Russians" incorporates a theme from Prokofiev's Lieutenant Kijé Suite.

wikipedia
We have it in our power to begin the world over again.  -Thomas Paine

Offline Dan

  • N Forum Veteran
  • Broke the fourth wall
  • *****
  • Posts: 5656
  • Country: ca
  • Location: Longueuil
  • Gender: Male
  • Age: 36
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Paying homage vs ripping off another group's sound
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2009, 02:14:49 am »
Nickelback just remix their own stuff and sell it back to people:

this is how you remind me of someday

Strangely, I think it doesn't as bad when you mix the two songs like that.

Other songs are fun to mix together too:

Kingdom Hearts-Boulevard of broken songs
"Politics is an ocean of toes" - Jacques Parizeau (1930-2015, RIP)