Why so few female comic book heros?

[Dan]

Some are probably worn by non-comic readers just for the entertainment value of dressing like a scantily clad herion & getting alot of attention, like to adult halloween costumes.

There are certainly some people who do that. They're not very common and I do wish people would stop talking about them so much, because currently it is the default assumption that all women in nerdy cultures are fake nerds just there for the attention until they manage to prove themselves otherwise.

It's not mutually exclusive. I knew a genuine nerd who loved to cosplay as Naruto's sexy jutsu for the attention.

It's also sad that comic book companies' (and a lot of others, like video games) reaction to the perception that women don't read their material is "oh well, guess they never will so let's not care about them" rather than "oh wow, we could double our market easily!" I mean, not only does it lead to conflicts like the one I mentioned before, but there could be so much more variety in material so more people could have more things to enjoy.

The video game industry is way ahead of the comic book one when it comes to catering to females. You might recall the original metroid featuring a bounty hunter in a massive battle suit with a gender neutral name (Samus Aran) and no mention at all of the character's gender in the booklet just for the "yup, that badass is a girl" effect at the end of the game (it was well received). Or Tifa Lockhart in Final Fantasy VII who's one of the first RPG character to attack by punching people in the face rather than being a magic user because she's a girl (and she's a very popular character). Or Tomb Raider where the main character is a badass adventurer (the creator had a hard time selling that idea to his boss but it paid off too). Or that we reached gender parity (or pretty close) in most modern fighting games. Or that it's not even rare these days to females as main characters. Or pretty much all single player console RPGs that let you play as the gender of your choices.

The point being, with videogames, we cross milestones all the time. There's progress. With comic books, not so much.

I think that their main mistake is to believe that few girls buy comics and any given character would appeal to only some of them (because no character appeals to everyone) making it a sale to a subset of a subset. In reality, a compelling main character (male or female) appeals to both genders.

There's also the problem that I doubt very much they know what would be interesting for females and risk making something that's sickeningly "girly" that no one wants. It's related to the problem of "not enough female comic artists" Daft was pointing out.

[Infinity Biscuit]

I'll disagree with you on the extent of the equality in video games (notice how most female characters are, just like male ones, built around male fantasy (sexual rather than empowerment, though), and even Samus is a good example: she's spending more and more time in her skin tight outfit rather than her armour and in her latest game she spends the whole thing seeking the approval of a man), but yes, it is ahead of comic books. In the same way that North Korea's space program is ahead of Kenya's. :P

It's not mutually exclusive. I knew a genuine nerd who loved to cosplay as Naruto's sexy jutsu for the attention.

Well the issue is more the idea that women are "fake nerds" than that we are doing things for attention. Though that other idea's pretty problematic because it's usually in the form of "they're trying to seduce us to take advantage of us" which, as it turns out, is not actually the reason most women try to feel sexy.

[Dan]

I'll disagree with you on the extent of the equality in video games (notice how most female characters are, just like male ones, built around male fantasy (sexual rather than empowerment, though), and even Samus is a good example: she's spending more and more time in her skin tight outfit rather than her armour and in her latest game she spends the whole thing seeking the approval of a man), but yes, it is ahead of comic books. In the same way that North Korea's space program is ahead of Kenya's. :P

I didn't claim equality, I claimed progress.

Would it have been better if Samus' commander was a female? I have to admit that this excuse for weapons restriction was very frustrating though.

[Infinity Biscuit]

Ah, sorry, I think I read stuff into your post.

And yeah, it would've been better, because it wouldn't have added the vibes of feminine submission to masculinity. That was especially bad since, as you mentioned, Samus was an example of a good and even early-appearing example in that she wasn't built around sexuality and worked entirely for her own motivations (though she's kind of a boring and flat character, but that's how Nintendo mascots tend to fare anyway).

[Dan]

The army pretty much is mostly male, so I didn't find it particularly troubling that the commander be male.

I did find it very annoying that she would submit to the military. There's a big "fuck off dickwad, I'm not putting my life in needless danger to satisfy your petty micromanagement desires" vibe in there. Unfortunately, I couldn't find the button that would have this effect. :-/

[Dan]

I noticed you didn't even touch the sad state of Hollywood that scores horribly on the Bechdel test. :)

That one too seems to have little progress.

[Karla]

Some are probably worn by non-comic readers just for the entertainment value of dressing like a scantily clad herion & getting alot of attention, like to adult halloween costumes.

There are certainly some people who do that. They're not very common and I do wish people would stop talking about them so much, because currently it is the default assumption that all women in nerdy cultures are fake nerds just there for the attention until they manage to prove themselves otherwise.

I've been reading a site called geek feminism occasionally. There's been a fair few rants along those lines. It sounds like there are quite a few cultures that have a high percentage of immature boys in them who are insecure in the presence of girls or women and this insecurity is given an easy outlet because they are hidden from behind a keyboard.

I've bought a couple of comic books this year since I've found some aimed for the female market (Batwoman and Catwoman, why no dog woman?). I don't have an interest in comics about superheroes but I thought they would help me learn German. I still haven't finished the Batwoman comic but I was thrilled to find out that she was a lesbian. I actually prefer drawing my own comics and have actually spent quite a bit of money on a shelf full of books to improve my skill in drawing them. I have been reading a lot of webcomics though which has far greater variety. I think this may be how women get into comics. There are sites devoted to publishing webcomics for this market only.

[Dan]

(Batwoman and Catwoman, why no dog woman?).

Do I really need to spell it out? :-P

[Infinity Biscuit]

I've been reading a site called geek feminism occasionally. There's been a fair few rants along those lines. It sounds like there are quite a few cultures that have a high percentage of immature boys in them who are insecure in the presence of girls or women and this insecurity is given an easy outlet because they are hidden from behind a keyboard.

One example I found a while ago that encapsulates how it's handled so well is a Battlefield 3 launch party, where included in the invitation was:

"Nothing ruins a good LAN party like uncomfortable guests or lots of tension, both of which can result from mixing immature, misogynistic male-gamers with female counterparts. Though we’ve done our best to avoid these situations in years past, we’ve certainly had our share of problems. As a result, we no longer allow women to attend this event."

[The_Xenologer]

I have actually never bothered with the Marvel and DC superhero series precisely because there's too much involved in jumping into the countless different series. I also prefer stories with a clear beginning, middle, and end. The only superhero book I own is the graphic novel The Dark Night Returns, since it is a self-contained story. As much as I love Batman and X-Men, there are so many other great graphic novel series out there that I don't see the need to waste my money buying all these comic books and waste my time researching all the different plot threads. For instance, Y: The Last Man is ten volumes, has strong female characters, and is extremely engaging.

[Delta]

I've been reading a site called geek feminism occasionally. There's been a fair few rants along those lines. It sounds like there are quite a few cultures that have a high percentage of immature boys in them who are insecure in the presence of girls or women and this insecurity is given an easy outlet because they are hidden from behind a keyboard.

One example I found a while ago that encapsulates how it's handled so well is a Battlefield 3 launch party, where included in the invitation was:

"Nothing ruins a good LAN party like uncomfortable guests or lots of tension, both of which can result from mixing immature, misogynistic male-gamers with female counterparts. Though we’ve done our best to avoid these situations in years past, we’ve certainly had our share of problems. As a result, we no longer allow women to attend this event."

Because everyone knows that segregating two groups of people has a positive effect on their respect for each other.

As for video games, Lara did get oversized breasts to have more to look at, but it did get toned down over time (or so I read). Many games also have a selectable player character that can either be male or female these days. Voyager: Elite Force handled this interestingly, with the male PC being called Alexander and the female one Alexandra, so all the voice lines could read "Alex" and there was no need to record different ones depending on the player's choice.
On the other hand there are MMOs. Pick a female character and the awkwardness begins. I tried it in an open beta once to see how their equipment looked like, and suddenly everyone is chatting to that character and I have to explain that I am male and so is my main character, and this one is just a test. What are they even thinking? There is nothing that would indicate that the person is in reach, of a compatible age or even the same sex as the character, so why are they trying to hook up with an MMO player character?

[AElf]

I've been reading a site called geek feminism occasionally. There's been a fair few rants along those lines. It sounds like there are quite a few cultures that have a high percentage of immature boys in them who are insecure in the presence of girls or women and this insecurity is given an easy outlet because they are hidden from behind a keyboard.

One example I found a while ago that encapsulates how it's handled so well is a Battlefield 3 launch party, where included in the invitation was:

"Nothing ruins a good LAN party like uncomfortable guests or lots of tension, both of which can result from mixing immature, misogynistic male-gamers with female counterparts. Though we’ve done our best to avoid these situations in years past, we’ve certainly had our share of problems. As a result, we no longer allow women to attend this event."

Because everyone knows that segregating two groups of people has a positive effect on their respect for each other.

As for video games, Lara did get oversized breasts to have more to look at, but it did get toned down over time (or so I read). Many games also have a selectable player character that can either be male or female these days. Voyager: Elite Force handled this interestingly, with the male PC being called Alexander and the female one Alexandra, so all the voice lines could read "Alex" and there was no need to record different ones depending on the player's choice.
On the other hand there are MMOs. Pick a female character and the awkwardness begins. I tried it in an open beta once to see how their equipment looked like, and suddenly everyone is chatting to that character and I have to explain that I am male and so is my main character, and this one is just a test. What are they even thinking? There is nothing that would indicate that the person is in reach, of a compatible age or even the same sex as the character, so why are they trying to hook up with an MMO player character?

Sounds to me like you found more role playing than you bargained for and got some real life feedback.  It isn't so comfortable being the object of an on-line group grope is it?  That is what a lot of nudist chat rooms end up like so I'm not surprised that gaming offers the same experience.

But it would be a good lesson, for anyone who could absorb the lesson and learn from it, to go on-line in the opposite sex, or an age group other than one's own, and see how you get treated.  I'll bet that, like your experience in gaming, the treatment will be radically different.

[Stuart]

Sounds to me like you found more role playing than you bargained for and got some real life feedback.  It isn't so comfortable being the object of an on-line group grope is it?  That is what a lot of nudist chat rooms end up like so I'm not surprised that gaming offers the same experience.

But it would be a good lesson, for anyone who could absorb the lesson and learn from it, to go on-line in the opposite sex, or an age group other than one's own, and see how you get treated.  I'll bet that, like your experience in gaming, the treatment will be radically different.

Being the female in these games sometimes means you're smaller, and a more difficult target to hit. I always make the tactical decision to be the woman, for this reason only.

Honest.

[Daft]

An interesting fact: Gail Simone, writer of Batgirl, was "fired" from the title a few months ago. Everybody was shocked, because it had good reviews and very good sales (specially for a non-iconic DC character). The repercussion was so bad, that DC had to hire her again for the title.
Gail now is probably the strongest female writer in mainstream comic books, not only for her talent and work (she spent many years writing Birds of Prey, an all-female group that nobody used to take it seriously), but because of the fanbase she has, mostly from female readers who support her books. I think she really does a very good thing for the media.

[Delta]

Sounds to me like you found more role playing than you bargained for and got some real life feedback.  It isn't so comfortable being the object of an on-line group grope is it?  That is what a lot of nudist chat rooms end up like so I'm not surprised that gaming offers the same experience.

More like being dragged into playing the role of the character in the first place. Not that I actually did assume the role in chat, I was acting OOC the entire time, more like the operator of the floating camera behind the character's head than the character itself.
And indeed, there are dickheads (who are also crotchbrains) everywhere, but please do not lump me in with them. This is probably one of the reasons why on the internet, G.I.R.L. tends to mean "guy in real life". And a more male-dominated environment then promotes more misogynistic behavior. And there we have it, a positive feedback loop, inherently unstable and bound to grow out of control.

But it would be a good lesson, for anyone who could absorb the lesson and learn from it, to go on-line in the opposite sex, or an age group other than one's own, and see how you get treated.  I'll bet that, like your experience in gaming, the treatment will be radically different.

But please do not do it here. We require an accurate gender representation based on either your sex or a strongly-held gender identity.