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Offline Dan

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Before the computer age
« on: October 11, 2009, 06:40:19 am »
Quote from: Someone, long, long ago
Before the computer age,

An APPLICATION was for employment.

A PROGRAMME was a television show.

WINDOWS were something you hated to clean.

A KEYBOARD was a piano.

MEMORY was something you lost with age.

A CD was a bank account.

COMPRESS was something you did to garbage.

LOG ON was adding wood to a fire.

A HARD DRIVE was a long trip on the road.

A MOUSE PAD was where a mouse lived.

CUT you did with scissors.

PASTE you did with glue.

A WEB was a spider's home.

And a VIRUS was a flu !!!!!


Although, my favourite comes from Larry Wall (Perl's creator). There's a debate on what's a scripting language and what's programming language and there's so much variety in language that we can make no rule that divides cleanly into those two camps, so Larry said that if we asked Ada Lovelace what's the difference between a program and script, she would have answered that a script is what you give to the actor and a program is what you give to the audience.

I have a question for those who lived before the web: how did you manage to get answers to your questions back then with no Google and no Wikipedia?!
"Politics is an ocean of toes" - Jacques Parizeau (1930-2015, RIP)

Online Delta

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Re: Before the computer age
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2009, 09:59:15 am »
Quote from: Someone, long, long ago
Before the computer age,

An APPLICATION was for employment.

A PROGRAMME was a television show.

WINDOWS were something you hated to clean.

A KEYBOARD was a piano.

MEMORY was something you lost with age.

A CD was a bank account.

COMPRESS was something you did to garbage.

LOG ON was adding wood to a fire.

A HARD DRIVE was a long trip on the road.

A MOUSE PAD was where a mouse lived.

CUT you did with scissors.

PASTE you did with glue.

A WEB was a spider's home.

And a VIRUS was a flu !!!!!


Although, my favourite comes from Larry Wall (Perl's creator). There's a debate on what's a scripting language and what's programming language and there's so much variety in language that we can make no rule that divides cleanly into those two camps, so Larry said that if we asked Ada Lovelace what's the difference between a program and script, she would have answered that a script is what you give to the actor and a program is what you give to the audience.

I have a question for those who lived before the web: how did you manage to get answers to your questions back then with no Google and no Wikipedia?!
I usually define scripts as code still in source form that is run through an interpreter and programs as compiled code. On the coding level, there is no distinction between script and program, there is only code, although some languages are intended to be compiled while others usually stay in code form and are run as scripts. This matches the pre-computer definition, where the compiler would be the stage, and distributions of scripts were drama books.
Please send me a message on the forum before contacting me over IM. For best results, also mention what you want to talk about, I am not much of a smalltalker.

Offline Dan

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Re: Before the computer age
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2009, 10:01:18 am »
I usually define scripts as code still in source form that is run through an interpreter and programs as compiled code. On the coding level, there is no distinction between script and program, there is only code, although some languages are intended to be compiled while others usually stay in code form and are run as scripts. This matches the pre-computer definition, where the compiler would be the stage, and distributions of scripts were drama books.

On which side would you place Java?

Edit: And on which side would you place Javascript?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 10:03:33 am by Dan »
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Online Delta

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Re: Before the computer age
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2009, 11:22:58 am »
I usually define scripts as code still in source form that is run through an interpreter and programs as compiled code. On the coding level, there is no distinction between script and program, there is only code, although some languages are intended to be compiled while others usually stay in code form and are run as scripts. This matches the pre-computer definition, where the compiler would be the stage, and distributions of scripts were drama books.

On which side would you place Java?

Edit: And on which side would you place Javascript?
Javascript is usually interpreted by the browser, so it is a scripting language, whereas Java is usually compiled (to run on a VM, but still transformed into bytecode), so it is a programming language. But other languages, like BASIC, are both, and which form they take depends on how they are run.
Please send me a message on the forum before contacting me over IM. For best results, also mention what you want to talk about, I am not much of a smalltalker.

Karla

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Re: Before the computer age
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2009, 11:57:41 am »
I usually define scripts as code still in source form that is run through an interpreter and programs as compiled code. On the coding level, there is no distinction between script and program, there is only code, although some languages are intended to be compiled while others usually stay in code form and are run as scripts. This matches the pre-computer definition, where the compiler would be the stage, and distributions of scripts were drama books.

On which side would you place Java?

Edit: And on which side would you place Javascript?

Java has to be compiled once, and the object code is then used. With Javascript the source code is given to the user / client / customer and compiled as it is needed. .

I know that Java is compiled into bytecode,, but this can effectively be seen as a virtual machine code for the Java Virtual Machine.

An interesting example is Linden Scripting Language, because that is compiled into mono when you save it but it is still considered a scripting language. I think because the developer or user can not give away or receive the object code without the source code.

Nude_not_rude

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Re: Before the computer age
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2009, 01:09:43 pm »
Quote from: Someone, long, long ago
Before the computer age,

An APPLICATION was for employment.

A PROGRAMME was a television show.

WINDOWS were something you hated to clean.

A KEYBOARD was a piano.

MEMORY was something you lost with age.

A CD was a bank account.

COMPRESS was something you did to garbage.

LOG ON was adding wood to a fire.

A HARD DRIVE was a long trip on the road.

A MOUSE PAD was where a mouse lived.

CUT you did with scissors.

PASTE you did with glue.

A WEB was a spider's home.

And a VIRUS was a flu !!!!!


Although, my favourite comes from Larry Wall (Perl's creator). There's a debate on what's a scripting language and what's programming language and there's so much variety in language that we can make no rule that divides cleanly into those two camps, so Larry said that if we asked Ada Lovelace what's the difference between a program and script, she would have answered that a script is what you give to the actor and a program is what you give to the audience.

I have a question for those who lived before the web: how did you manage to get answers to your questions back then with no Google and no Wikipedia?!

now I feel old......before the web was popular we had to refer to Encyclopaedias (in Australia it was the 'Encyclopaedia Britannica' - now online at http://www.britannica.com/ ) and library books for research.

Stuart

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Re: Before the computer age
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2009, 01:15:54 pm »
now I feel old......before the web was popular we had to refer to Encyclopaedias (in Australia it was the 'Encyclopaedia Britannica' - now online at http://www.britannica.com/ ) and library books for research.

And somehow you always had confidence in the answer you found - unlike on the internet!

Ah, memories...

Karla

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Re: Before the computer age
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2009, 01:23:24 pm »
A colleague of mine once said that his young child described a typewriter as a laptop without a screen.

Next time I'm at my parents I'm going to bring back one of the old typewriters stored away in their roof. I am sure that it will come in useful one day if I ever have to explain to the students how quickly times have changed. I might get one to dictate a letter to another. I just hope the tip-ex hasn't dried up.


Offline Dan

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Re: Before the computer age
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2009, 06:08:48 pm »
Java has to be compiled once, and the object code is then used. With Javascript the source code is given to the user / client / customer and compiled as it is needed. .

I know that Java is compiled into bytecode,, but this can effectively be seen as a virtual machine code for the Java Virtual Machine.

An interesting example is Linden Scripting Language, because that is compiled into mono when you save it but it is still considered a scripting language. I think because the developer or user can not give away or receive the object code without the source code.

Java is once compiled into bytecode and then that bytecode is interpreted but while it is interpreted hotspot looks for "hot" sections of code and Just-in-Time compile that code for native code and hot-swap it while it is running. And there's also GNU Classpath Java (GCJ) that can take a a Java file and compile it to native code right away.

Javascript is even trickier, if you look at Microsoft's JScript engine, it's interpreted but if you look at Google's V8 engine, it's compiled. Apple's Squirelfish engine interprets it and JIT compile it like Java but Squirelfish extreme compiles it, unless you ask for it to be interepreted.

Python is compiled and interpreted just like Java, but you can compile to a Java class with Jython or to a CLR assembly with IronPython.

Haskell have both interpreters and compilers, the most popular being GHC that can both run your code completely interpreted or completely compiled (usually people go interpreted during development and compile when they are done).

Even languages like C and C++ which were clearly considered compiled before now have interpreters too.

Nothing prevents a Turing Complete language from having either an interpreter or a compiler.
"Politics is an ocean of toes" - Jacques Parizeau (1930-2015, RIP)

Karla

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Re: Before the computer age
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2009, 06:11:46 pm »
Java has to be compiled once, and the object code is then used. With Javascript the source code is given to the user / client / customer and compiled as it is needed. .

I know that Java is compiled into bytecode,, but this can effectively be seen as a virtual machine code for the Java Virtual Machine.

An interesting example is Linden Scripting Language, because that is compiled into mono when you save it but it is still considered a scripting language. I think because the developer or user can not give away or receive the object code without the source code.

Java is once compiled into bytecode and then that bytecode is interpreted but while it is interpreted hotspot looks for "hot" sections of code and Just-in-Time compile that code for native code and hot-swap it while it is running. And there's also GNU Classpath Java (GCJ) that can take a a Java file and compile it to native code right away.

Javascript is even trickier, if you look at Microsoft's JScript engine, it's interpreted but if you look at Google's V8 engine, it's compiled. Apple's Squirelfish engine interprets it and JIT compile it like Java but Squirelfish extreme compiles it, unless you ask for it to be interepreted.

Python is compiled and interpreted just like Java, but you can compile to a Java class with Jython or to a CLR assembly with IronPython.

Haskell have both interpreters and compilers, the most popular being GHC that can both run your code completely interpreted or completely compiled (usually people go interpreted during development and compile when they are done).

Even languages like C and C++ which were clearly considered compiled before now have interpreters too.

Nothing prevents a Turing Complete language from having either an interpreter or a compiler.

Your point being?

Offline Dan

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Re: Before the computer age
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2009, 06:14:10 pm »
Your point being?

The line between "Scripting languages" and "Programming languages" have been so blurred that it doesn't make sense anymore to split languages in those two camps.
"Politics is an ocean of toes" - Jacques Parizeau (1930-2015, RIP)

Karla

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Re: Before the computer age
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2009, 06:18:43 pm »
Your point being?

The line between "Scripting languages" and "Programming languages" have been so blurred that it doesn't make sense anymore to split languages in those two camps.

As with any definition, it was only ever a convenience.You didn't respond to my point about whether the human readable source code could be separated from the machine readable object code.

I'm not sure what you're getting all excited about.

Stuart

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Re: Before the computer age
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2009, 06:30:34 pm »
Next time I'm at my parents I'm going to bring back one of the old typewriters stored away in their roof. I am sure that it will come in useful one day if I ever have to explain to the students how quickly times have changed. I might get one to dictate a letter to another. I just hope the tip-ex hasn't dried up.

Give them an etch-a-sketch and see what they make of that.

Offline Dan

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Re: Before the computer age
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2009, 06:34:21 pm »
As with any definition, it was only ever a convenience.You didn't respond to my point about whether the human readable source code could be separated from the machine readable object code.

You can do that in most languages...

I'm not sure what you're getting all excited about.

Currently? The Parrot VM. It's nice VM designed for all dynamic languages that would let us mix say Python code with perl's CPAN libraries with a few SmallTalk objects thrown in for good measure. There's also translators for Java and .NET bytecode so you can import that as well. It compiles to bytecode and also JIT compile. It natively supports high level concepts like a good garbage collector, tail call optimisation and continuations.

It's been in the work for about 6 years and the "production-ready" release is due next January.
"Politics is an ocean of toes" - Jacques Parizeau (1930-2015, RIP)

Karla

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Re: Before the computer age
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2009, 06:37:31 pm »
As with any definition, it was only ever a convenience.You didn't respond to my point about whether the human readable source code could be separated from the machine readable object code.

You can do that in most languages...

But can you do it with something that is obviously a scripting language?

Just out of interest, you mentioned an interpreter being used behind the scenes for C and C++. Do you have any concrete examples?