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Offline Maurits

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Jen Converso
« on: March 20, 2018, 01:38:04 pm »
I found this channel on Youtube. This girl makes all kinds of videos but also has some where she shares her opinion on sensitive subjects. I found these three to be the most inspiring. I totally agree with her on most things and she just expresses herself very clearly and honest.

LET'S GET NAKED | discussing public & private nudity


Why I don't wear a bra #FREETHENIPPLE


No More Shaving


Society just puts so much pressure on people, especially women and girls. I think it's very brave of her to stand out and share her stories.

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Re: Jen Converso
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2018, 11:52:11 pm »
It is a interesting thing to connect to feminism. I personally dont understand the current wave of feminism or its ultimate goals, but it appears that body acceptance is being pulled into the definition of modern feminism. I think that it goes hand in hand with the #freethenipple movement due to the empowering aspect that the goal would achieve. She isnt makeing a statement for just nudity itself, she is simply saying what the act of nudity isnt, and I think body acceptance is the key theme of her message.
What is your philosophy?

Offline Maurits

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Re: Jen Converso
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2018, 11:08:53 am »
It is a interesting thing to connect to feminism. I personally dont understand the current wave of feminism or its ultimate goals, but it appears that body acceptance is being pulled into the definition of modern feminism. I think that it goes hand in hand with the #freethenipple movement due to the empowering aspect that the goal would achieve. She isnt makeing a statement for just nudity itself, she is simply saying what the act of nudity isnt, and I think body acceptance is the key theme of her message.

I agree. What I find strange of society as that men blame women that they are dressing immodestly and that they can't help themselves. It's not the women who should pay for it by having to live by all those standards. It's often not how a woman dresses that makes it immodest but how a guy sees it and looks at it that makes it immodest.
One of the big problems is that the human body is sexualized in media and especially porn. People treat bodies as objects for lust which is wrong. We are more than just our bodies and we should treat ourselves and others like we are.

Offline Lisette

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Re: Jen Converso
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2018, 10:37:08 pm »
I can't agree with her more. Nowadays men still often only see women as an sexual object. She explains that our naked bodies are just a part of nature and not something that should be sexualized and that's what naturism is all about. There are so many men who blame the way a women is dressed for sexually harassing them. The weirdest thing is that women fully dressed with no skin showing are also often raped or harassed and they still try to blame it on their bodies. So they really do not have any excuse for such behavior, they need to learn to respect women's bodies and learn self-control. Furthermore, I really liked the way she explained why breasts aren't sexual organs. She is completely right about that. She is also right about shaving, many girls say they do it for themselves, but the real reason most of the time is that they are scared about the opinions of others. It is just really difficult for a girl not to shave in this society, because it does not stand up with the beauty norms and people will definitely talk behind your back or even right in your face.

Offline Dogoegma

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Re: Jen Converso
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2018, 01:10:30 am »
I disagree. It think people are turned into sexual objects by social circles that don't have a prevailing ethic. In conservative areas (especially where I live during the summer at the moment), to treat a women in that way is seen as barbaric and uncouth. The person is immediately shamed. Likewise, I have seen men portrayed (and I have personally seen certain men in my life treated) as sexual objects. Blaming women for being sexually assaulted or harassed in the circles I tread in would be seen as absolutely despicable.

Further, breasts being/not being a "sexual organ" is contingent on what you define as a sexual organ. If I define a sexual organ to be an organ directly used for reproduction, then the female breast would then be a sexual organ (as it is used to feed the young). If I, instead, were to define them as instruments in coitus, then they would not be. It entirely depends on what the person means by sexual organs.

I do agree with your last point, however. Most (but not all) of the things that we "do for ourselves" are directed at how we will be perceived by others. There is an acknowledgement to the ideals of stoicism, but we, as a society, tend to epically fail at adhering to them. The belief that "I don't do what I am told" is primarily derived from this.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2018, 01:12:08 am by Dogoegma »

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Re: Jen Converso
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2018, 02:06:35 am »
I can't agree with her more. Nowadays men still often only see women as an sexual object. She explains that our naked bodies are just a part of nature and not something that should be sexualized and that's what naturism is all about. There are so many men who blame the way a women is dressed for sexually harassing them. The weirdest thing is that women fully dressed with no skin showing are also often raped or harassed and they still try to blame it on their bodies. So they really do not have any excuse for such behavior, they need to learn to respect women's bodies and learn self-control. Furthermore, I really liked the way she explained why breasts aren't sexual organs. She is completely right about that. She is also right about shaving, many girls say they do it for themselves, but the real reason most of the time is that they are scared about the opinions of others. It is just really difficult for a girl not to shave in this society, because it does not stand up with the beauty norms and people will definitely talk behind your back or even right in your face.

I highly disagree with this statement. In the time that we live in now, women are more equal then ever. At least in the USA. I can't say much as far as the Netherlands goes. But even she points out that society puts the pressure on her to shave. Not men. It's society in general.

That same society that states being naked for the sole purpose of being naked is wrong. The same society that believes a little boy can't see a grown man naked, despite having the same plumbing just different size.

The same society that shames men for being naked around their children. Or in the shower. Or comforting them when they are sick. But applauds women that do the exact same thing.

The same society that believes men are pedophiles if we want to adopt a child and be single. But a single woman, no, that's ok.

This is how people are raised. This is how peers judge us. And one thing I've learned is that women shame each other WAY more then a man ever does. A man that loves you will like whatever you wear. Your "girlfriend" (as many women put it) will tell you how it makes you look fat.

They proved not too long ago that women judge way more then men do for how you look, act, and portray yourself.
Sometimes we think too much and feel too little. -- Charlie Chaplin

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Re: Jen Converso
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2018, 04:05:11 pm »
@Dogoegma I am not sure I understand all that you are saying. However, of course I know that men are sometimes also sexualized, but the thing is it just happens way more often with girls. I do agree with your opinion on breasts being a sexual organ or not. Indeed it depends on what your definition is of a sexual organ. However Jen Converso made it clear that her definition of a sexual organ meant a body part used for lust. And I agreed with her explanation why breasts should not be seen as that.

@DrgHybrid Of course Women are more equal now then they used to be, but that does not mean there is no more room for improvement. For example in the past it was normal for women to be beaten by there husbands and now it is not anymore. However, that does not mean that women are now suddenly equal to men. I believe The Netherlands is one of the best countries in terms of the equality of men and women. In America women are still often payed less than men. In every country it is different and in some countries it is worse than others. In South-Korea women who live alone have to put men shoes next to their door in order to prevent to be raped or assaulted and in India women can’t even go alone outside at night.
About shaving I never said it was men who put pressure on women to shave. Furthermore, you seem to think that society now thinks better of women than of men. However, I believe you are wrong about this. Some part of society now encourages women to be more free and have more rights, but they do not believe that men should have less rights. Such as being aloud to be naked or adopting a child. It is the same thing as some people believing feminist are haters of men. However, all that feminists want is to be equally treated as men. But because there were a few women who hate men and call themselves feminists now suddenly everyone thinks that feminists hate men.
Lastly, it is obvious that girls judge people too.  However, your comparison about a boyfriend and a female friend makes no sense to me. Of course most boyfriends will like you no matter what, but that doesn’t mean other men do. They still think your boobs are to small and your belly is too chubby. And my girlfriend never tells me I am ugly or fat, she gives me advice for example on clothing. She might say this looks better on you than that, but she will never say you look horrible in that. If your friends treat you that way that just means they are not really your friend and just a bad person. And this can be for women as for men.

Offline Dogoegma

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Re: Jen Converso
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2018, 07:42:40 pm »
I think you understood my point. That was all I intended to say on the matter till @DrgHybrid brought up for information. Some points:

"In America women are still often paid less than men."
Actually this has been illegal for decades by the Equal Pay Act of 1963. The .77 on the dollar argument is based on median incomes and not the same hours worked, jobs, and other important details. If you actually wanted to get that particular number to parity you would have to require employers to pay women for having children. Next, you will need to force women into taking STEM degrees, even if they don't want to (as the evidence is overwhelming that those majors provide higher incomes on average). Further, you would need a nationwide campaign to educate women on how to negotiate better salaries. Finally, you would need to take into account the differences in the standard deviation for men and women on IQ (note that both sexes have the same mean [average] intelligence, and any given women or man may be smart or dumb [you cannot, nor should not make judgements on the account of sex]). There are "more male idiots and geniuses" and this will cause there to be a smaller number of females capable of handling higher IQ jobs (notice again, that there will always be some females who can and should get the position). Unless you ban such jobs or require them to hire substandard workers, we will not have parity.

I need to stress that I am not opposed to some legislation to help decrease the 'wage gap', however I do not see it as a major issue as the Equal Pay Act of 1963 already guarantees equal pay for equal work and qualifications. I would prefer measured and reasonable responses that take into account our culture, economy, and national security interests etc.

"In South-Korea women who live alone have to put men shoes next to their door in order to prevent to be raped or assaulted and in India women can’t even go alone outside at night. "

This is interesting, I will have to look into this. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

"Furthermore, you seem to think that society now thinks better of women than of men."
Rather than make a point, I think this piece of information will do justice far more than I can. Before Boko Haram kidnapped those 300 girls, they were murdering little boys and men by the hundreds (even setting the classrooms and dorms on fire, trapping the boys in, [after letting the girls get out and telling them to live righteous lives] and burning them alive). Noone cared about that, the articles all talk about "people" killed. It is a known fact that calling male-victims "people" will increase public sympathy (because the public thinks that "people" might include girls). If we had taken them seriously earlier when they were tormenting boys trying to get an education, those girls would be in their dorms, right at this moment. (Notice that Boko Haram doesn't want to stop girls from getting an education, they want to stop ALL people from getting a "fake" 'Boko' (western/secular) education because it is "haram" (forbidden)).

"But because there were a few women who hate men and call themselves feminists now suddenly everyone thinks that feminists hate men."

This doesn't help much, that is true. And, without a doubt there a good feminists out there [probably the majority I think]. However, The problem is that many people reject feminist theory and are called women-haters for rejecting ideas like patriarchy theory. The problem is that feminist theory is actually a hypothesis that isn't well tested. Many people are skeptical of the claims made by feminist academics and scholars as the scientific data seems to tell a completely different story. (the differences of the sexes in humans has been well documented and is practically as given as the world is round, yet many feminists argue a derivation of Tabula Rasa [which is in direct contradiction with the evidence]).

*While humorous some feminist-nutters have been actually trying to "dismantle" science because it specifically shows some of the talking points to be invalid. The thinking goes is that because science disagrees with some of feminist theory, it must be because sexism. Read the racial version of this phenomenon with the 'fallists'.

"Lastly, it is obvious that girls judge people too."
I think his point was more about the numbers and less about existence.


Thank you both for your points and have a wonderful Easter!
« Last Edit: April 01, 2018, 07:45:46 pm by Dogoegma »

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Re: Jen Converso
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2018, 07:55:05 pm »
But it does change the rights. Believe me this.

As an example, if you haven't heard the story you can look up photographer Heather Whitten. She took a picture of her husband cradling their sick 1 year old naked son in the shower. He was really sick and suffering from a high fever and diarrhea. So, cold shower to help lower that and easy cleanup. The picture was reported and CPS took her to court. But had that been a woman doing the same thing, the picture would had been viewed as more caring and compassion then wrong.

As far as adoption goes, I'm a single guy trying to do just that very thing. I've been turned away from several adoption agencies. Not because of the money I make. Condition of my home. Background or anything like that. But was told because I'm a single male. When I asked if single women could adopt, was given a yes. One agency even told me that they would adopt boys to single men, but not girls. Whereas single women could adopt either a boy or a girl. Granted, I rather have a boy, but this is an unjust and sexist way to do it. Thus, I won't do business with that agency.

I can't speak for all countries and it's in poor taste to use a world example. There are 20 countries and territories that are considered 3rd world and/or repressive. Most of these countries are in Africa and a few more in Asia and the Middle East. In these countries, you're considered lucky if you made it to your mid to late 50's before you died. Not to say that the rights of these people should be overlooked, because they shouldn't, but comparing to them to the rights of fully developed countries is too large.

And then we get to the abuse section. Again, just focusing on the America stats. Men are discouraged from society to complain about domestic abuse. People online laugh when a man gets kicked in the balls, but they would scoff at a woman getting kicked in the same area. They laugh when women are pummeling men over the top of the head, but do that to a woman and it's the end of the world.

In 2010, a study was done in the UK where more then 40% of domestic violence was done against men, but yet there is no outreach for men. There are no support groups. And we are shamed if we wish to report it. Where are guys rights at this moment? Why do women have a full support team but men are just suppose to suck it up and take it?
(source: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence)

In parental rights, women are also heavily favored in America. If you have a child with a man and go into a custody battle, there's a strong chance the woman gets custody over the man. Even though the man has the better house. The man has the more paying job. The mans life is more stable then hers.

Maternity leave is another thing. 3 months for a woman before she has to return to work. This is legislation signed into law back in 93 for women. There is no such law for men. And jobs can/can not offer it up if they want. If they do (only 20% do) then it's only 1 month.

The pay scale argument is true. This has been explained why a few times with some studies. Men are more likely to goto, and complete, college. Women were more likely to have children and drop off to raise the family. This is getting better though. In 1980 women earned way less, 67% for the same job, then men did. By 2015, it was 90%. With the studies, more women are going to college and getting their degrees. This is society leaning for the better. They also have better credit scores and are more fiscal responsible then men at the earlier ages.

As far as the feminist thing goes, I understand that feminist are about equality. And that's fine. Equality is what everyone should have. However, when the voice of the "FemiNazis" outweighs the true feminist, that's what people here. It's just like the left and right wing extremist. People don't hear the rational and willing to negotiate democrats and republicans. They hear the radicals.

Lastly, to your last response that made no sense, let me try and clear it up a little bit. I meant that your friend (not yours in particular, a female friend in general) is more prone to say derogatory things to another woman then a man is. A study done by Brandwatch on behalf of Ditch the Label found that 51% of women talked more trash to each other then 48% of men that talked trash to women. Course, the study, even though done over a 4 year time, isn't concrete evidence. Another theory is that sexist talk is becoming a "norm" in society which they compare using the "N" word when you have friends call each other that.

TL:DL - I'm not saying that we are not all equal. Because, true, we are not. But huge strives have been made and in many situations, men are now no where near as equal as women.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2018, 07:56:54 pm by DrgHybrid »
Sometimes we think too much and feel too little. -- Charlie Chaplin

Offline Maurits

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Re: Jen Converso
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2018, 01:53:01 pm »
This topic isn't about equality of men and women. You can discuss whether men or women have more inequalities but it really has no use. It depends on many things and both need equal attention. By calling out what men and what women have to endure doesn't solve anything. It shouldn't be men versus women but humanity versus modern day society.

Jen Converso doesn't call herself a feminist or naturist in the videos. She just talks about herself and how she feels about body acceptance, nothing more and nothing less. Let's stay on topic and talk about what the videos are actually about.

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Re: Jen Converso
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2018, 02:39:55 pm »
Why I don't wear a bra #FREETHENIPPLE


I just read this article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5587855/School-fire-humiliating-braless-17-year-old-telling-BAND-AIDS-nipples.html

This example ties in with the video

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Re: Jen Converso
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2018, 11:54:38 am »
Why I don't wear a bra #FREETHENIPPLE


I just read this article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5587855/School-fire-humiliating-braless-17-year-old-telling-BAND-AIDS-nipples.html

This example ties in with the video

Great article but the comments of all those people. I don't know how people could think like that.

Offline Dogoegma

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Re: Jen Converso
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2018, 12:12:02 pm »
I am not a big fan of YouTube comments. Could I ask you what comments you are referring too?

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Re: Jen Converso
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2018, 01:42:44 pm »
great vids  :grin:

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Re: Jen Converso
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2018, 01:56:39 pm »
I stopped reading comments on the news. It's most of the time negative whitout any justifications.