Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Article in the Times  (Read 4695 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline vanesa1017

  • Female Chat
  • Nude with Towel
  • *****
  • Posts: 259
  • Country: us
  • Location: New York City
  • Total likes: 0
  • Gender: Female
  • Age: 39
  • Referrals: 2
Article in the Times
« on: July 16, 2009, 08:50:33 pm »
Here is an article in the times about the appropriateness of young children hanging out with no clothes on.  Interesting read, gets a bit funky at the end but it is cool that the times would write about this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/16/garden/16nudity.html?_r=2&src=twt&twt=nytimes


When Do They Need a Fig Leaf?

ALEX NICOLA, who will be 5 in August, enjoys being naked as frequently as possible at home.

“In the morning he gets up and takes his pajamas off, and rather than get dressed right away, he walks around naked,” said Dawn Nicola, Alex’s mother, a stay-at-home parent in Castle Rock, Colo.

After school, he likes to take off his pants, recline on his stuffed animal chair and watch an episode of SpongeBob SquarePants while snacking on cheese-flavored crackers.

“I call him my little naked boy,” Mrs. Nicola, 44, said affectionately.

Alex’s desire to be unclothed is not shared by his twin brother, Andrew, or by his 6-year-old sister, Gabrielle. “It’s a stage he’s going through, and he’ll grow out of it,” said John Nicola, 39, Alex’s father, a sales executive at First Data Corporation.

Usually Alex’s state of undress is a non-issue. Several weeks ago, however, it caused something of a stir when a classmate of Gabrielle’s and her mother came over for a play date. Alex asked his sister and her friend to paint his fingernails and then suggested a fleshier canvas.

“Apparently, he decided to take off his clothes and was like, ‘Put nail polish on me! Put nail polish on my bottom!’ ” Mrs. Nicola said.

The girls obliged, and after creating a shapely pink masterpiece, ran down to the kitchen to confess to their mothers. Mrs. Nicola was taken aback, but after admonishing the girls and examining her son’s backside, she found the situation mildly amusing.

The classmate’s mother, however, was horrified. “The mom was sort of appalled that Alex got naked in front of her daughter,” Mrs. Nicola said. “She expressed concern that we hadn’t talked enough about private parts. She said, ‘In our family, we always talk about how certain parts of the body are not for anyone else to touch.’ ”

For many parents, allowing a child to run around naked at home is perfectly natural, an expression of physical freedom that represents the essence of childhood, especially in the summer. But for others, unclad bodies are an affront to civility, a source of discomfort and a potentially dangerous attraction for pedophiles. These clashing sensibilities can create conflict, even when the nudity in question takes place at home.

Often, the differences in viewpoint are generational. Rachel Sarah, 36, a writer and mother in East Bay, Calif., said that until her 9-year-old daughter, Mae, turned 7, she liked to wear only a T-shirt in the summer, a preference that Ms. Sarah found healthy, but that Mae’s grandparents could not accept. “My mom and stepfather were very insistent on her having clothes on for everything,” Ms. Sarah said.

Although most days Mae ran half-dressed through the sprinkler or played with friends under a hose, she had to accept different rules when her grandparents were around. “Their view, I would say, is that little girls need to have their clothes on unless they’re taking a bath,” Ms. Sarah said.

Aly Mandel, 41, a school psychologist and mother of five in Highland Park, N.J., said she, too, felt ire from extended family members for allowing her daughter Ava, now 6, to roam naked in and around the house when she was younger.

“My mother, it used to drive her crazy how naked Ava was,” Dr. Mandel said, explaining that the girl abhorred clothes. “My mother-in-law also, they both felt it crossed the line of what was appropriate. My mother-in-law would come in and automatically say, ‘Ava, put on your clothes. Put on your underwear.’ ”

Gloria Schwartz, Dr. Mandel’s mother-in-law, says she didn’t have a problem with the nudity when Ava and her twin sister, Emily, were very young. But “when they got to be 3 years old, it bothered me,” said Ms. Schwartz, 65, a real estate agent. “I would pull up to the house and the girls were running around naked. It felt inappropriate for them to be standing on the street in front of their house naked.”

Ms. Schwartz said she has since become more comfortable with her grandchildren’s nudity, something that now comes up with Dr. Mandel’s youngest set of twins, who are 2.

Sometimes it’s the grandparents who are more permissive. Robert Kohlbrenner thought nothing of it last summer when his grandchildren, two boys, ages 4 and 10, and a girl, 6, asked if they could skinny-dip by the dock on a very hot day at his home on Oneida Lake in upstate New York.

“I think it’s fun for them,” said Dr. Kohlbrenner, 58, a psychologist in private practice, who found out later that his son did not approve. “If you can’t do it when you’re a kid, when can you do it, you know?”

Dr. Kohlbrenner’s son, Justin, 30, said he and his wife felt that their oldest son was too old to be naked. “He was getting a little too big to be doing it, you know, especially in front of his brother and sister,” he said.

Experts like Sharon Lamb, a professor of mental health at the graduate college of education at the University of Massachusetts, Boston, said it’s all but inevitable that children will want to spend time wearing only their birthday suits, especially in certain situations. “Clothes can be uncomfortable,” said Dr. Lamb, a co-author of the forthcoming book “Packaging Boyhood: Saving Our Sons From Superheroes, Slackers, and Other Media Stereotypes.” “For some kids, getting dressed gets associated with something they don’t want to do, like eating their veggies.”

Around the age of 3 or 4, children begin to differentiate between what’s private and what’s public, experts say, and they usually begin to feel modesty soon after. But parents’ attitudes play the largest role in determining whether children are comfortable being naked at home, said Lawrence Balter, a psychologist at New York University and the editor of “Parenthood in America,” an encyclopedia.

“If someone has what appears to be an overly strong reaction to seeing young children running around naked, it tells us about their own hang-ups, their own inner conflicts,” Dr. Balter said.

Cultural norms are another factor. Katarzyna Psujek, 38, an administrator at Tiffany & Company and a mother of two sons who lives in Greenpoint, Brooklyn, said her son Sebastian, who turned 3 in May, often frolics at home naked and spent nearly an entire weekend naked last September at a rented house in upstate New York where the family celebrated a friend’s wedding with about 30 other overnight guests.

“Ninety-nine percent of the people who were there were Polish,” said Ms. Psujek, whose last name is pronounced SUE-yek. “I remember thinking, if there were more people around, and if they were Americans, would they accept him running naked as he was?”

In the United States, she continued: “I just don’t think it’s acceptable in popular culture. Americans have a sense that the body is very private. You don’t talk about these things openly. Nudity is hush-hush.”

Some discomfort with nude children comes from the inevitable: they tend to answer nature’s call whenever and wherever it beckons.

Upon picking up her son, Hayden, from his friend’s house in Burlingame, Calif., last year, Rachael Dominguez, an optician, said she was stunned when the friend’s mom told her that Hayden, who turns 6 next month, was not welcome back because he had undressed and urinated in the yard. “She said, ‘I just think it’s a bad example for my children and I think he shouldn’t come over and do that anymore,’ ” said Ms. Dominguez, 42.

Another factor that can play a role in attitudes toward naked children is the child’s gender. Phyllis Halper, a fourth-grade teacher on Long Island, will not permit her 3-year-old son, Gavin, to get completely undressed at home, not because she thinks it’s inappropriate, but because she is concerned that it might influence the behavior of her daughter, Jordyn, 5. “I expect her, especially as a girl, to be more modest,” Ms. Halper said.

Ms. Halper, 35, has taught 9- and 10-year-olds for a decade, and she said she sees firsthand how young girls are learning about sexuality at younger and younger ages, and finds it unhealthy.

Masturbation is another landmine. “Kids like to touch themselves, they do,” said Phyllis A. Katz, a psychologist and the former director of the Institute for Research on Social Problems in Boulder, Colo. “Parents sometimes feel uncomfortable about that, and maybe negative feelings about masturbation are mixed up with nudity.”

The sexual component of nudity — and a fear of pedophiles — is what makes some adults object entirely to letting children be naked. Jenny Louie said her husband is so uncomfortable when their 4-year-old daughter, Rebecca, is naked that, even if she is alone in her bedroom, in Los Angeles, he will immediately close her shutters.
“He’s afraid of weird people looking in,” said Ms. Louie, 35, a marketing consultant for Disney.

Her husband, John Louie, 38, a vice president at the Mattel toy company, said that he is “definitely protective” of his daughter, but that modesty plays a larger role.

At a party at a friend’s home recently, Mr. Louie bristled when the hosts let their 4-year-old daughter splash naked in a children’s pool, and his wife allowed Rebecca to join in. “I don’t want to see her naked and, frankly, I don’t want to see other kids running around naked either,” Mr. Louie said. “Half the other couples there were fine with that, but I’m more demure.”

Another group that doesn’t always appreciate unclad bodies: childless adults. Kevin Allen, 45, who used to work as a personal shopper, still recalls with horror the afternoon more than a decade ago when he was at a client’s house, and the woman’s two young granddaughters came into the room and began changing outfits.

“I was extremely uncomfortable,” said Mr. Allen, who estimates the girls were 5 and 6. “I know the grandmother well, but I didn’t know the children.”

When asked to reflect on the source of his discomfort, Mr. Allen, who is gay, said he feared the situation could all too easily be misinterpreted. “Being gay, you’re already thought of as a pervert by some people,” he said. “If you look the wrong way at them or something like that, people are going to think you’re having some kind of lascivious thought. So it’s kind of not appropriate even in your own house. When other people are around, you should have modesty.”

Psychologists seem to agree that parents are wise to teach their children that different situations call for different behaviors, and that taking guests’ feelings into account is a thoughtful thing to do.

“I think there are societal realms of appropriate behavior,“ Dr. Katz said. “If a kid was having a birthday party and was 7 or 8 and suddenly decided to take off all his clothes or something like that, that would not be seen as an appropriate thing to do. Not because of the nudity per se, but because it’s so unexpected.”

« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 10:32:27 pm by Danee »

Offline Danee

  • Retired Staff
  • Broke the fourth wall
  • ******
  • Posts: 9542
  • Country: us
  • Location: Florida
  • Total likes: 7
  • Gender: Female
  • Referrals: 135
Re: Article in the Times
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2009, 10:33:54 pm »
Vanesa, thanks so much for posting this.  I took the liberty of posting the article along with the link, in case they make it so one has to subscribe in a week or so, as many newslines do, to see the original article.

I found some of the comments from readers interesting as well. 

http://community.nytimes.com/comments/www.nytimes.com/2009/07/16/garden/16nudity.html?permid=398#comment398
Top-free Equality. Its a right, not a privilege!
http://www.freethenipple.com/

Offline vanesa1017

  • Female Chat
  • Nude with Towel
  • *****
  • Posts: 259
  • Country: us
  • Location: New York City
  • Total likes: 0
  • Gender: Female
  • Age: 39
  • Referrals: 2
Re: Article in the Times
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2009, 03:56:49 am »
No problem at all, thanks for taking the liberty!  And see you in the morning :65 :543
« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 04:03:26 am by vanesa1017 »

Nude_not_rude

  • Guest
Re: Article in the Times
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2009, 03:44:46 pm »
Brilliant article Vanesa! Unfortunately most people spend too much time worrying about what other people think they are thinking instead of just being themselves and letting innocent behaviour be.

Offline gbanude

  • N Forum Veteran
  • Nude without Towel
  • *****
  • Posts: 463
  • Country: us
  • Location: Ohio
  • Total likes: 3
  • Gender: Male
  • Age: 46
  • "Just lookin' for chatty naturists!"
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Article in the Times
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2009, 07:40:55 pm »
I let my 9 & 7 yos do what they want. We were at my parents where they have a pool and they were constantly running around naked in and out of their suits. Drying themselves, not always running. I told my 9yo who is a good swimmer she could jump in the pool without a suit. She tried it and was very happy. My 7 yo doesn't care, but she does not make a big deal about it either. I'm ok with it all, as long as no one is running up and down the front lawn.
"We are more to be pitied than blamed..."

Offline ailsaman

  • N Forum Veteran
  • Nude without Towel
  • *****
  • Posts: 309
  • Country: gb
  • Location: Kent, UK
  • Total likes: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • Age: 46
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Article in the Times
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2009, 01:49:58 pm »
This is a a great article. I liked how it presented a spectrum of views. It was interesting to note that the people who were more comfortable with children, were also the ones that were more open to letting them be. I suspect that the ones with reservations are the type that want their children to be miniature adults.

Perhaps times have changed? As kids we would often be running around naked in the summer, in and out of the paddling pool or whatever - even if it was with the girls from next door. Our parents never made any issues of it, perhaps sometimes my cousin might come over and the pool would be in the garden and she'd want to go in. No costume or dry clothes so her mum would tell her to just take her knickers off and get in, like wise I might go round there and want to splash about. Didn't really think much about it, obviously we did notice we had different 'bits' but that was about it.


Offline gbanude

  • N Forum Veteran
  • Nude without Towel
  • *****
  • Posts: 463
  • Country: us
  • Location: Ohio
  • Total likes: 3
  • Gender: Male
  • Age: 46
  • "Just lookin' for chatty naturists!"
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Article in the Times
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2009, 01:38:26 am »
Why not just let the kids be kids? If they're comfortable with it then the adults should be as well......

Maybe it's the adults who need to grow up, not the kids...... 
Totally agree. For my kids, it all seems completely natural and no one really ever says anything.
"We are more to be pitied than blamed..."

simonalexander2005

  • Guest
Re: Article in the Times
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2009, 07:19:55 pm »
Why not just let the kids be kids? If they're comfortable with it then the adults should be as well......

Maybe it's the adults who need to grow up, not the kids...... 



Well Said!

Offline ailsaman

  • N Forum Veteran
  • Nude without Towel
  • *****
  • Posts: 309
  • Country: gb
  • Location: Kent, UK
  • Total likes: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • Age: 46
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Article in the Times
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2009, 07:52:15 am »
Why not just let the kids be kids? If they're comfortable with it then the adults should be as well......

Maybe it's the adults who need to grow up, not the kids......  
Totally agree. For my kids, it all seems completely natural and no one really ever says anything.

That's the great thing about seeing families on a nudist beach, everybody is totally comfortable. We were at the beach a while ago and a family turned up with two kids, girl about 7 and boy about 5 or 6. Almost straight away the kids had stripped naked before their parents had even had chance to sit down and unpack and undress themselves. Last year we went to the beach and gf brought along her niece who's 6, she'd never been to a nudist beach before. Fi asked her mum if she had any problems with her daughter going to a nudist beach and she said no, and she did explain to her niece that they were going to a beach where people didn't wear swimming costumes - her reply was 'do I have to wear my costume?' , 'not if you don't want to' so when we got to the beach she was quite happy to run about and do what kids do without her costume.

It is only natural that kids as they grow up will become curious about their bodies, but if it's something that you've been brought up with then it's less of an issue - to me it didn't really seem odd that I'd see my parents naked in bed, or my mum might come out of the bathroom with just a towel around her head. OK so I was aware from an early age that mummy's and daddy's bodies were different but it wasn't as though I was made to think there was anything wrong with that and as I got a bit older obviously became more aware of how and why they were different and then onto the mechanics of penises and vaginas...
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 12:36:23 pm by ailsaman »

Offline brandon

  • N Forum Veteran
  • Naturist Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2253
  • Country: us
  • Location: Texas
  • Total likes: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • Age: 30
  • Texas
  • Referrals: 5
Re: Article in the Times
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2009, 04:52:57 pm »
I haven't read all the comments on the NY Times' website, but one comment there caught my attention:

Quote
I would rather see a little girl romping naked in the surf than dolled up and sexualized like JonBenet Ramsey.


We have it in our power to begin the world over again.  -Thomas Paine

Offline Patrick

  • Just a dude from California
  • N Forum Veteran
  • Nude without Towel
  • *****
  • Posts: 545
  • Country: us
  • Location: Back in San Diego!
  • Total likes: 3
  • Gender: Male
  • Age: 39
  • Hmmmm... what to write here....
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Article in the Times
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2009, 05:29:54 am »
I haven't read all the comments on the NY Times' website, but one comment there caught my attention:

Quote
I would rather see a little girl romping naked in the surf than dolled up and sexualized like JonBenet Ramsey.




Wow,  Kudos to that person for putting it so well.  Speaking on that, has anyone seen the show toddlers and tiaras?  It is seriously disturbing.

I say the previews for it and wanted to throw up, then curiosity got the best of me and I watched one episode, and I felt sick watching it. The damn "pageant parents" should be ashamed of themselves. They say its the girls idea but you can tell it's really the adults using their kids to get attention. :56789
He who sleeps in the buff is in for a nude awakening.

:yoda :chewie: